Roche India: A Purpose-Driven Culture

Abstract

Roche India’s Managing Director, Lara Bezerra, had a very different kind of formative experience as a young woman, and this largely influenced the kind of “Quantum Leadership Transformation,” and its associated company culture, that she initiated at Roche. The Roche transformation, though including the essential elements of RenDanHeyi, also differs from that of Haier because Roche is a pharmaceutical company operating in the health sector, not a manufacturing company. Lara Bezerra believes that both leaders and employees work at their highest potential if they find their life’s purpose and that they then live that purpose both in their private lives and at work. Everything about the radical changes she has made at Roche India, organizational and cultural, follows from that. In the process, she has redefined the very purpose and meaning of a pharmaceutical company, turned every management sacred cow on its head, and changed the lives of both her own employees and India’s patients. She changed her own title from “Managing Director” to “Chief Purpose Officer.”

In 2019, the Mumbai Mirrorwrote, “Lara Bezerra has transformed leadership in the pharmaceutical industry forever.”

Lara Bezerra’s Golden Rule for company transformation is: “If you want to transform the company, you must transform the people first. If you want to become a Quantum Leader, you must first become a Quantum Self.” The first question she asked new people arriving for a job interview was, “What is your purpose?”, and her main criterion for hiring them was whether they could align that personal sense of purpose with a sense of purpose associated with working for Roche India. She has lived the wisdom of that necessity herself on her own journey toward becoming the Managing Director (“Chief Purpose Officer”) at the company. Her employees know this, and they say that Lara’s personal example of walking the talk inspires them to believe that they, too, can practice what she preaches.

Lara is a Brazilian national who has worked in the pharmaceutical industry for twenty-seven years. She was raised in São Paulo by her doctor father and her Japanese mother who, too, was a doctor, but also educated as a physicist. To this day Lara looks upon her mother as having been the mentor who shaped her life. When Lara was a young woman in her early 20s, her mother gave her two books for her birthday, a biography of Werner Heisenberg (aka The Uncertainty Principle) and a copy of my own first book, The Quantum Self. Both books, she has said, made a strong impression, and Lara felt that quantum physics touched her in some important way. Several years later, at a time of both personal and professional crisis that was making her question her purpose and role in life, a friend gave Lara a copy of the Indian classic, The Bhagavad Gita, for inspiration, and that became her leadership Bible. She was guided by its message and framed her own new sense of purpose: to become a business leader and help her employees become the kind of people she now wanted to be, and thus better to serve the needs of sick people. She took up a new position with Bayer in Hungary as General Manager responsible for the Pharma Division and Health Care in 2003.

After several more executive positions with Bayer, and now as Managing Director for Roche in Venezuela, she read the Quantum Leader, and has said this book helped her know better what kind of leader she would like to be and what kind of company she would like to build. She joined my Quantum Leader train-the-trainer program in Oxford in May 2016 and got inspired to develop more tools to cascade it down to her leadership team in Venezuela. She developed the tools that she would later implement in India. And so, when three years ago she was appointed Managing Director of Roche Pharmaceutical India, she was asked to develop a new strategy to challenge the status quo, focusing on increasing the engagement of the team and impact on patients. The strategy Lara and the leadership team had obtained approval for from Roche global senior leadership had included a pilot for “Quantum Leadership Transformation Program” at Roche in India. Within three months of her arrival in Mumbai in October 2017 to take up what she felt was the most exciting challenge of her career so far, she and her leadership team had worked out a new local vision, based on the global purpose for the company and themselves. In November 2018, 3 months after the rollout of the new strategy, business model, and culture, the team gave her the new title as Chief Purpose Officer.

I am now going to let Lara describe in her own words how that Roche experiment unfolded, and what it achieved:

The Roche India Experiment

“After reading The Quantum Leader and then participating in Professor Danah Zohar’s train-the- trainer program for Quantum Leaders in Oxford, UK, I knew these were qualities I wanted to bring to my own leadership practice and, if given the opportunity, qualities I wanted to implement in an organization I was leading. I was still finishing out my contract as Managing Director of Roche Venezuela at the time, so there was only sufficient time left to implement the leadership training and the introduction of Quantum Management to the leadership team there. When I then transferred to my Managing Directorship at Roche India, and was given permission by the CEO of Roche Pharma Global to implement a new strategy, I was able to introduce the full concept and try to create the pharmaceutical industry’s first Quantum Organization. My first ask after arriving in Mumbai was to outline my own priorities and sense of direction. These included:

• A Clear Sense of Purpose: We needed to ask, why does Roche India exist? Why do we want to work for this company? What impact can the company, and I as its leader, make to improve the human condition while at the same time growing a good business? I wanted to leverage the Roche global purpose of “Doing now what patients need next”. The challenge was to bring the translation of this purpose to India. What this would mean to India? In a workshop, the leadership team decided that the vision for Roche Pharma India would be: “We inspire people to transform healthcare in India and care for every patient’s life through sustainable, innovative solutions” – we should go beyond only commercializing our medicines. We have to be part of improving the health care in India, collaborating with other stakeholders.”

• Vision: Knowing clearly where we want the business and ourselves to be after a designated period of time. How will we achieve making the impact we want to achieve in each of the communities and regions where we operate, and in the company’s own performance? What are the first necessary steps we must take?

• Strategy: Adopting strategy that produces both short and long-term benefits was crucial. A balance needed to exist. Too much focus on short-term-results without consciousness of the long-term impact would affect the sustainability of the transformation.

• Flexible Operating Model: We must always be willing to review the operational set up as new ideas and unexpected developments demand new ways of working.

• A Knowledgeable Core Team: Develop a leadership team that is committed to the business, has a knowledge of the pharmaceutical industry, and a clear sense of what our transformation needs to achieve. A knowledgeable core team would be necessary to make the right transition without losing momentum. Important that members of core team should not think they have all the answers, but rather possess growth mindsets, wanting to experiment to discover new ways to deliver more value to the customers.

• Leadership Commitment: In guiding the transformation, the most critical piece for implementing Quantum Management would be the alignment of the leadership team. Our company must work with its own dynamics and capabilities and adapt our implementation plans accordingly. The leadership team must be clear about our purpose and intention from the beginning, because thinking and behavior displayed by them will be reflected in the whole company. Our leadership team must be role models who play a significant role in our Quantum Management work.

Why Quantum Management?

Corporations and businesses will be crucial in the transformation needed for the future of our economies in the face of environmental and other uncontrollable challenges to come. By the end of January 2020, humanity had faced a challenge never seen before. The only solution to meet the COVID-19 threat was to change the way companies see success in the world. If any company followed the existing definition of success, maximizing profit and having more sales than competitors, it would fail.

Success in 2020 and onwards would have to be measured by the ability to work together and foster the right culture to build a better right environment to keep humanity healthy. I saw this need for the pharmaceutical industry before the Covid crisis, a need to redefine and renew its sense of purpose, and I felt that adopting the principles of Quantum Management would be the best way to achieve it.

When I learned that the quantum systems dynamics underpinning Quantum Management required leadership and employee commitment and positive motivation, as well as the company’s purpose and values, as a part of a whole system approach that included societal and environmental impact, I felt this resonated with my own leadership values and past experience. And I deeply favored its emphasis on self-organization and less top-down control as a way of unleashing employee potential.

Quantum Management Implementation

We began by asking whether we are in the business of offering solutions/cures for specific diseases, or in the business of bringing better health and health care to the population? If our purpose is bringing better health and health care to the people, we would need others to work with us. We would need to include stakeholders, and even find ways to cooperate with competitors. And we would need to create a new and supportive company culture, embedded both in the mindset of every individual employee, and in the structure and processes of the whole organization.

Our company structure needed reinvention to allow for the self-organization that would give employees the decision making capacity and responsibility required to fulfill their own best potential, and at the same time enable them to bring the most personal and efficient service to our customers—the healthcare providers and patients. The leadership team and I discussed the possible removal of any middle management and bureaucratic impediments preventing this. During a workshop to develop the new strategy, the team had used many different models of companies with innovative business approach, presented by global transformation group. We were particularly impressed by the Haier RenDanHeyi model I had learned about from Danah. Accordingly, we decided to divide our sales force, which previously had served India as one market, into 9 independent, multi-functional regional teams, each one of which would serve a cluster of India’s states. The logic of this was not just to create smaller teams, but was also an acknowledgement that both health needs and health care differ widely from one Indian state to the next.

To emphasize our new vision, we decided to change our titles accordingly. The Director of Financial Management became Director of Sustainable Solutions, the Director of Marketing became Director of Customer Value Strategy, each member of the sales force became a Value Specialist. The whole organization decided that my own title as Managing Director should be changed to Chief Purpose Officer. Each of these title changes indicated a change of approach and the nature of our new culture. For instance, the sales force would no longer approach a potential customer by saying, “Here is what I can sell you,” but instead ask, “What can I do to help you give your patients better care?”

The Beginning and First Training

In February 2018, when I first shared the Quantum Management idea with my leadership team, everyone undertook the SQ and Quantum Leadership Self-Assessment test designed by Danah Zohar. We outlined the new strategy, operating model of the company, and the kind of new company culture we would need to build. I trained the Leadership team myself on the 12 SQ & Quantum Leadership Principles, Danah’s Scale of Motivations, and Reframing, and we all did a purpose exercise.

The purpose of our work was to deliver our new vision for Roche India, which included impacting the healthcare in India in a positive way, collaborating with all stakeholders, and being ready to work for India and foster an environment where our team could excel. We knew this would require cascading down to every employee of the company the whole of the Quantum Management and Quantum Leadership training we had undergone ourselves. The entire organization then took the SQ & Quantum Leadership Self-Assessment test, received an understanding of the eight principles that define quantum physics and thus Quantum Management, were trained in Reframing practice, learned how to use the Scale of Motivations, and to apply Quantum Management principles to their own work responsibilities. For this entire project, all training courses and workshops were developed in house.

The outcome we wanted to achieve with Quantum Management was to make quantum leaders of every individual, inside the organization and outside as well (stakeholders). These new quantum leaders could then impact both internally and externally on the environment, thus transforming the culture and nature of work in the whole ecosystem. After our core leadership team had the task of transforming themselves into “teachers” to support the transformation of all other individuals in the company. As the team evolved towards adopting a Quantum Management style, new ways of working emerged, and the operating model began transforming itself.

Our HR Director (later People and Culture), Swati Yadav, had received the first QM training from me in February 2018. Some months later, she also participated directly in a training course with Danah and her team in Slovenia. She was an inspiration to many people inside the company and outside, training many of our own people and teaching many others about principles needed to use the tools that support implementation of the new strategy/operating model. Over time, members of Swati’s team were able, using the principles of Quantum Management, to suggest even more HR tools that could support our company purpose.

Our Finance Director, Daniel Plüss, became the Scale of Motivations ambassador. From improvements in both his own personal life and work. Daniel saw the power of self-awareness and of “owning”, and transforming. the emotions that drive our decisions. When he later moved on to head a new Roche department in Switzerland, he quietly brought many of the concepts and practices of Quantum Management to his team there.”

This is the end of Lara Bezerra’s own personal account.

Comments from Roche Employees Involved

On my very first visit to the Roche offices, my immediate first impression was, “These people are ‘on’ something!” People were smiling, chatting eagerly to each other, their eyes were bright, alert, and excited. They were dressed in casual, mostly Indian, clothing, and moved about almost like dancers in a synchronized rhythm. “We are ‘on’ something,” one of them laughed when I related this impression. “We are ‘on’ love and purpose! We love each other and we love our jobs. We love working together. We are a family. And we have a sense of purpose that makes our lives and our jobs meaningful.” She then pointed proudly to the string of “A Great Place to Work” banners strung around the ceiling. “We won that award!” she said.

During each of my visits to the Roche offices, people could not resist telling me how the transformation had changed them, not only professionally, but also as private people.

The Director of Marketing related how the Roche transformation had transformed his relationship with his 13-year-old son. “I had thought I should be a very traditional and strict Indian father, keeping my son just a little bit afraid of me,” he said. “I thought this would make him want to obey me, and to live up to my high expectations. It was a very formal father/son relationship, and we were not emotionally close. But the training at work made me question this, and I shared my doubts with my son. “I was wrong to be so strict with you,” I admitted. “‘I love you very much and I thought that was the way to show it. But I don’t want you to be afraid of me. I want you to love me, please. I want us to enjoy talking and doing things together.’ Then, much to my son’s surprise, I gave him a big hug. It took him some time before he could learn to relax with me, but now we get along so much better. And those grades I scolded him to get? His academic performance is so much better now, with no scolding from me!”

Another member of the leadership team told me that Lara’s constant messaging about viewing others “with unconditional, positive regard” had finally even mellowed his behavior toward his in-laws. “We have to go so often to lunch with my wife’s family,” he said, “and most of her relatives irritate me. So I have normally been very rude to them, and of course this always upsets my wife. Our car journeys home after these events were never very pleasant. But last week, after a lunch with his mother’s family, my son said to me on the journey home, ‘Dad, what happened to you? You were patient and polite to everyone today. Is this Lara’s influence?’” “Yes,” I had to admit, “Lara has taught me I must even treat your grandmother with unconditional positive regard.” The man chuckled with hearty self-congratulations after telling me this story.

Swati, the HR Director, told me she never used to think about things like purpose or meaning, especially not in connection with her work. “I used to go to work just to earn money for necessities,” she said. “Anything that mattered to me happened away from work.” But now, having gone through Lara’s training herself, and then had the experience of training others, she said she now feels a real joy and sense of purpose about her work. “I feel that it means something. That I am making a difference.” She was planning to take the Vipassana meditation course recommended by Lara, and in some of her spare time she had been attending Osho’s wisdom teachings. “Lara has told us,” she recounted, “that to become better leaders, we must become better human beings. I am now trying to become a better human being.”

One of the sales reps, after telling me how much his job was now giving him a sense of real meaning and purpose, proudly told me how his new ability to make decisions on the spot, had allowed him to save a life the week before. “I was with a doctor at one of the veterans’ hospitals,” he told me. “One of his cancer patients needed one of our medications straight away. But there was a problem. The medication came in a box containing four sheets of tablets, and cost $400 per box. The doctor said that the hospital budget would only allow him to spend $100/month on any one medication. But it is a Roche rule that partial boxes of our medications cannot be sold separately. The doctor pleaded with me to help, and said that if the patient didn’t get the medication within 24 hours, he would die.” The sales rep then told me, “Because of my new power to make decisions without seeking permission from higher up, I made calls directly to the finance, quality and distributions teams and in 2 hours I could provide the treatment by handing the doctor just one sheet from the box. I told him I would let him purchase the medication like this every month from then on. This one occasion then opened a door for many other patients to benefit from this solution.” Lara told me that if the sales rep had to “follow the usual channels,” it would have taken six to eight weeks to get clearance from head office for that kind of exception. “The patient would have been dead long before then,” she added.

And finally, the CFO, Daniel Pluss told me, “Going through this transformation has made me a better person, a better husband, a better father, and certainly a better and wiser leader. I owe ‘quantum’ and the experience of working with Lara everything that I may now do or become.”

***

By the late summer of 2019, two years after Lara had taken up her position in Mumbai, lives and jobs had been transformed, lives had been saved, lasting collegiate relationships had been formed with hospital directors and doctors, an ecosystem had been built that even included MOU’s with now cooperating competitors, three new cancer hospitals were being built, costs had been kept to sustainable levels, the employee engagement score had gone up from 46 to 82%, the attrition rate decreased from 35 to 11% (front line to 4%), there were many media reports of Roche having become a company which is truly there for the greater good and looking for sustainable healthcare solutions, Lara herself had been featured in several global business magazines, the Indian Government was asking to cooperate, several new positions had been filled with people who were purposely choosing Roche because of its culture and leadership, and overall profitable sales had increased by 5%; by 20% in the channel given most focus—the first growth experienced in five years. But then……….

……. Lara Was Fired

On a Monday morning, last week of November 2019, Lara was summoned to a hotel meeting room in Mumbai, and there confronted by her Regional Director and two of his associates. She was told that she would be released of her duties 4 days later, and asked to clear her desk and leave the Roche offices by Friday afternoon. Despite acknowledging a complex relationship with her Regional Head, the decision shocked her. There had been no prior warning or indication of such a drastic decision. This shock was shared by everyone back at her office. Staff quickly arranged a “Thank you and leaving party” for the Friday afternoon, and her departure was marked by confusion, group depression, and many tears. There was also furore and shock in the Indian media about this inexplicable firing of a leader who had brought a new perspective of purpose, and a new image to healthcare leadership, becoming something of a national hero. In the couple of months that followed, without a temporary replacement assigned to Lara’s job, office morale declined sharply and many people left the company. Some members of the leadership team were laid off. Three others had been promoted to positions outside India previous to Lara’s exit.

I was myself shocked and confused by Lara’s sudden firing, and reached out to both Lara and people from her leadership team to discover some explanation. All confirmed that 85% of the problem had been a personality conflict between Lara and the new Regional Head. Two and a half years before, Roche Pharma India a new strategy, including the Quantum leadership transformation, had been approved by the Asia Pacific Regional Head and the Pharma CEO. Both were very supportive of this initiative, as it was aligned with the new strategy of Roche Pharma Global to initiate a global transformation to change the approach of the pharma business. Roche Pharma India was in the forefront of this transformation, with two other countries.

But in August 2018 (2 months after the implementation of the new strategy in India) a restructure was announced for Roche Pharma, where new regional structures were announced. Previously, the Managing Director of Roche India used to report to the Asia Pacific Head, who reported to the CEO of Pharma. In the new structure, 2 important changes impacted India. India has moved from the Asia Pacific region to a new region created with Russia, Baltic countries, Turkey, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. This new region had little knowledge of Indian history or culture, and its Regional Head had no prior knowledge of Lara’s pioneering transformation program. Additionally, 2 layers of management were included between the CEO of Pharma and the General Managers of the countries, making it more difficult for the CEO to support local decisions of the countries. The CEO of Pharma and the regional head who had supported the new India strategy had left the company to lead other Pharmaceutical companies. Although there was still support from Basel and Roche Global, to Roche Pharma India project, decisions were taken on a regional level without much interference from more senior leaders.

The new Regional Head promoted to this position was an older man with a successful career at Roche of more than 30 years. This would be his last posting before retirement. His management style and Lara’s were quite opposite, although they shared the goal of bringing success to India. He was a traditional, command-and-control manager, accustomed to having General Managers command their teams from the top. The team empowerment granted by Lara, her total trust in her leadership team, the new style of teams making presentations to senior global/regional leaders, the self-organized teams, all this came as a shock to his more traditional style of controlling results. Lara herself has admitted that she did not always handle well her tense meetings with him, during which he always expressed impatience and frustration with not seeing faster results, more data, and a lack of traditional strategies with more hierarchy in the states. Finally, on that Monday morning, he could take no more.

So, the conflict of personalities and leadership styles had been 85% of the problem. But I then wondered about that remaining 15% of reasons why the Roche India transformation had failed to meet expectations. Were there valuable lessons here for other leaders who might want to initiate such a program? Was there anything that Lara and her leadership themselves team might do differently today? Were mistakes made that were part of the learning curve involved with any such radical transformation, and might corrections have been made had the project been allowed to run its course? I spoke in confidence with people I knew from the company, and have collected together here as one narrative their “après le deluge” reflections in hope these may guide others. I draw particular attention to their fear of being “too Newtonian,” because many business leaders have asked me whether building a quantum organization means you must throw away all Newtonian structures.

Former members of the leadership team commented: “We could have been more skilled at fully and clearly articulating our quantum vision. We were passionate, enthusiastic, and committed, and we were constantly reassured that our own very strong sense of purpose inspired all those who worked with us. But many of our employees were never really sure ‘what this quantum is about’ or how to use it in meeting the challenges of their own, newly independent, roles as decision-makers. During the training sessions, new, exciting, almost magical were presented, but perhaps staff were left too much to themselves to figure out how they might make practical use of it. We didn’t sufficiently help them to design clear KPI’s (key performance indicators) against which they could measure their own success or failure. So perhaps there was never a clear enough link drawn between the new quantum way of working and the results this was expected to produce, the results we needed them to produce.”

I witnessed the resulting stress of this “not knowing what ‘quantum’ means” felt by one of the sales team during one of my own visits to Roche. The man came into Lara’s office space saying that he couldn’t secure a meeting with any relevant medical staff at one of the hospitals in his area of responsibility, and asked for her advice. “Just be ‘quantum’,” she told him. But, clearly frustrated by this, he burst out with, “‘Quantum!’, ‘quantum!’ I don’t know what is this ‘quantum’!”

Leadership team reflections continued with, “One general observation is that, when we are excited about implementing a very new process, there can be a tendency to be too dogmatic about things. For instance, we were perhaps too dogmatic about some elements of the motivation scale: don’t be in fear, don’t be in craving, etc. The fact is, we are all driven by these motivations more often than not, and the goal should not be to hide or deny this or but rather to recognize we are in this state of mind and then have the ability to reframe ourselves. We were perhaps too dogmatic in thinking that data is Newtonian, and therefore a distraction. Instead of monitoring things like sales data, we concentrated instead on counting numbers of patients treated with our medications, but while this was good in spirit, patient numbers can be very difficult to collect in India. Looking back, we realize in a more balanced way that not all data is bad. It is a matter of what you do with it after it is collected. How can this data be useful in reflecting better patient care? Also, we were dogmatic about being self-organized, which led some people to feel lost, yet uncomfortable to say so. In a nutshell we were in a constant fear of not living Quantum, and as a result neglected some essential elements of measurement, guidance, or guardrails from our toolbox.

Bringing it back to how we understood Quantum at the time, there was a feeling that whenever we measure things or guide the system, we will make the system collapse. However, the way we understand quantum systems now, they do employ very clear mechanisms/principles that define boundaries for the various moving parts functioning in a system, rather than letting them drift apart into complete chaos. Being self-organized and adaptive does not mean you do not gently guide the process, and defining these guardrails can be very important—in addition to providing the system with a signaling mechanism to show what works and what does not work. In a business context, this signaling would be some sort of metrics/KPIs of a qualitative and quantitative nature, providing transparency about whether things are moving in the right direction. We could then learn from these signals to adapt the system accordingly. We could have added some other measures to assess the success of the cultural transformation.

From an outcome perspective, we did not define the measures we would have needed:

• (1) We had 7 strategic goals and should have defined qualitative and quantitative measures for each of them to know if we were moving toward these goals;

• (2) We should have defined clear guardrails from a business performance perspective and should have held the organization accountable for delivering them—not in a top-down way but in a self-accountable way;

• (3) We should have established a comprehensive set of reports, measures, feedback loops which could have served as the context for all the self-organized teams to adapt, based on the impact they were having;

• (4) Whatever we removed, we should have reflected on how to replace it with something else—e.g., when removing the sales incentives, we should have replaced them with another system of recognition and incentives to reward successful performance; when we stopped having budgets in terms of sales and operating expenses, we should have replaced them, perhaps with guardrails/general system boundaries, and other ways of defining the outcomes we wanted to achieve and measure against.

If we think of a company like Roche, we operate in a circle of patients, sales, investment, profits—this circle needs to be sustainable or else we end in chaos. In the past we would look at the sales of last year and then model how much we can make this year, how much investment we need to do so, and hence patient impact and profits were a result. In the new setup, we started with the patient needs, then looked at which investments would be required to meet them. Sales and profits would come after, as measurable results. We understand better now that, if we use data and measurement in the right way, “these so called Newtonian approaches may lend themselves as important signals in a quantum system.” In a further conversation with me, Lara added, “We should have made defining our governance strategy a first priority.”

Roche had neglected one of the central principles of the RenDanHeyi model: a self-organizing, quantum organization must be guided by a strong central operational system. This is not a rigid set of Newtonian rules, but a clear set of guiding principles that set priorities and goals and assess how they are met.

***

Still, despite these various problematic issues, every person from the Roche India leadership team with whom I spoke, and Lara herself, felt certain that their quantum leadership transformation was on the right track and, had it been given the five years that Lara had insisted from the beginning would be required for such a deep change to bear fruit, the whole project would have been an exemplary success. Unfortunately, Lara did not have the power or position of authority enjoyed by Zhang Ruimin to insist on this, and the combined impatience, lack of understanding, and lack of trust from her direct superiors caused the baby to be stillborn.

Yet, while Lara Bezerra herself suffered the loss of her job, and the transformation program at Roche India was abandoned, the seeds she planted during her truncated tenure with the company are now finding more fertile soil in new practices being adopted by Roche Global. Roche has been undergoing a transformation journey for over three years, guiding divisions in other countries to transform themselves in the kind of direction that Roche Pharma India had began in October 2017. The good work of Roche Pharma India during these years can be seen by the number of talents from India “exported” to other affiliates globally, including the three members of her Roche India leadership team who earlier had been promoted to more senior positions elsewhere in the company. They tell me that, in their new positions, “In our own quiet but determined way, we are spreading quantum, and we are seeing changes.”